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Post » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:31 pm



(A)_vs_[nCn] ZProtoSS Shrike, TWL Base++ ladder USA

Remember the days when Base, or in the case of the US, Base++ was what people were playing? Yeah, it relied on teamwork....Except if you had players that were EXCEPTIONAL in their positions... ZP (not the spunk nub that has the same initials), ZProtoss could turn a match...in base/base++ or classic because the guy lived and breathed and was unmatched in his position. There are a dozen incredible match changing LD...A dozen match changing HO...etc... Anyone who dedicated themselves to a particular role and absolutely lived and breathed it, was able to be a match changer without cowboying. ZP was one such player and deserves huge respect for what he did. We had Gwinch here in AU/NZ...there were others who could shrike amazingly...Camo (one of the best easily), meat, bk-, mojo, and mikhail (and some others unmentioned no doubt) played shrike large when they played it, from the US guys like slut, harn and deezy played incredibly well too. Never seen a euro player shrike in a match changing fashion but I have no doubt they had a couple. Anyway. As I've said before: ZProstoss: - Best- Shriker- Ever. Prove me wrong because I love play makers and wanna see if anyone ever got close.
Last edited by |A3| on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:47 pm

ZProtoss played in some AU/NZ teams didn't he? Or maybe the AvA 7man team? can't remember.
That demo will be a good watch

ColonelBlair
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Post » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:37 pm

Am I remembering wrong? I always thought Base++ was floaty as heck and it allowed for insane HO ski routes. Surprised they did a ladder with that. Still didn't have mine-disc either.

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Post » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:45 pm

tl;dr entire thread. Who's up for regular games?

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Post » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:37 pm

Monk Wrote:Am I remembering wrong? I always thought Base++ was floaty as heck and it allowed for insane HO ski routes. Surprised they did a ladder with that. Still didn't have mine-disc either.



It had some of the earlier aspects of classic. Off the top of my head I can think of these, but this isn't from a txt file...just my memory (so it's possibly wrong in parts):-

1) No spread on the disc. It went where you pointed it...Yes, base had spread on the disc so you could aim it at a static object like a deployed turret and it would miss about 1/4 times.
2) A MPB transporter on the vehicle pad
3) SJ pack that worked like classic's (ie when worn it worked for the wearer and when used it worked for your teamates within a radius.
4) a higher speed cap on HO (and perhaps other amours too...cant remember. No difference in physics, just a higher top speed wall).
5) Less of a fuse on nade launcher and Mortars (they traveled at same speed, but would explode on impact rather than bouncing around for 3 minutes before exploding
6) No blur file on the cloak pack. Just the sound so people couldn't as easily detect (hack) it.
7) No CRC checking on weapon skins.

The idea was to make it a little easier for offensive roles as a turtle/Dstack was practically unbreakable in base and the US community wanted it a little more offensively slanted. After classic came in the offense had so much in favour the mine-disc was brought in to give the D something extra...that, tighter chainspread, low fuse nade launcher and less side to side strafe for high-speed cappers so snipers could hit them easily. Also Tougher assets like gens and cameras that twarted SJ. I personally thought classic was more fun, but I know some players hated it.

As for Floaty Physics, I think you are thinking of Version2 by Qing. The only thing classic pinched from V2 was the fast deployable inv. Base++ had identical gravity to base which is why unlike with version 2 and classic you need different gravity settings to watch the demos, base++ you just run as a base demo. I guess the higher speed cap for HO made routes easier in ++.

But for insane HO speed routes none were faster than classic. But again...low ability to strafe left and right made BB'ing, SL and a mine-disc in the face stopped Heavy capping being very successful (but sure, more possible than base lol)
Last edited by |A3| on Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:46 pm

ColonelBlair Wrote:ZProtoss played in some AU/NZ teams didn't he? Or maybe the AvA 7man team? can't remember.
That demo will be a good watch


He played a couple of matches for <AvA> on the AU ladder. I have a demo of his on dessicator <AvA> vs /x/. He made an impact on the match but not enough for <AvA> to win....he certainly did amazingly well considering his ping. I'll upload it.
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Post » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:17 am

|A3| Wrote:*snip*


Thanks for the write-up.

Yeah, I was definitely getting b++ mixed with version 2. Version 2 had so much vertical jet power that even if the top speeds were slower IIRC it allowed for ridiculously OP HO with way too much maneuverability.
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Post » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:00 am

Great close matchup between AvA and /X/ - can anyone tell me the name of Map 1?





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Post » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:42 pm

Geez Blair, it's like watching me play but with poorer skiing and worse aim.

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Post » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:38 pm

..but in more successful clans? ;)

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Post » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:10 pm

Just for you Goz

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Post » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:04 am

That Shrike ram...

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Post » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:28 am

My most recent demo from shrike legend, ZProtoss



Last demo I have of ZP. He gave it to me the last time we spoke. He'd just made it that day and I badgered it outta him...TribesNext had come out...Full pub of varying skills (lol).

As always, ZP ownage...lol...There's a player, homerclees (not to be confused with the great Homerpf), that has quite a funny tantrum about getting owned by the "shrike guy" and he should at least "use the guns". :D


Enjoy.
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Post » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:00 pm

Mojo playing in an ohm vs Ohm match...Mojo the capper? Check this ****.



We played a pick-up with our practice night and the last of the cQ players. Mojo...owned by comp-mod BR bridge bugs etc still shows some incredible runs. Mojo <3 Liins team were gay (fact)
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Post » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:55 pm


Entil showing great awareness of Ohms play. He plays LD and respect for his awareness. He's an excellent player. Smart. Aware and skilled.
Please Note:- /X/ panic at how close they came to a loss :) And these were guys I really respected.



Take a look after entils demo how relaxed we were at camp ohm. We could've played a more cut throat team. but Bob did a fine job as HO and Arcane was somewhat unsure (or just being humble...as he was). NO matter. We played the team we played. The great thing about QT's demo is you see in it our relaxed preparation. Only /x/ had something to lose . Don't get me wrong..I'm not bagging them..they were way over skilled. But inevitably they would have lost ( ....but I'm f*****g BAGGING exiled for not trying....and keeping them in the game). Once Ohm had bk I think we could've taken a map...perhaps a match...And I respect those guys. look at this map to see how close is close.

And High scorer of the match...you dont need to guess:-



f*****g guy <3
Last edited by |A3| on Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:12 pm

Great work A3, thanks a TON for putting these on Youtube, it's so much easier than loading up T2 and digging through demos.

But ewwww look at all those epack HOs. Man it's weird that it took forever for people to realize that the only real use for an epack HO was for a heavy capper with elevated stands. Heck, you could spack HO cap Crossfire, didn't even need an epack.

But especially on a map like Quag where you can sit on the small hills and mortar / gren spam the base / flag / chain LD who have *no* cover while whoring your shield pack. It was a strategy the yanks took to extremes in 7v7 (those darkstrand / projectile / kambul teams) but it'd work in 12v12. I think T2 comp in Aus was dead by the time spack became the pack of choice for HO.

Not to mention spack disc jumping gets you across quag way quicker than skiing. Quag was such a bitch to ski on for heavies coz its so flat and water traps, but spack DJ'ing gets you to 150 kph in, what, 3 discs? With no health lost.

Reminds me of one of hte last pugs we had in T2 on here, and we played drifts and I was HOF, and everybody came in with an epack or SJ. Watching 7v7 american matches some 2 years later, drifts was played exclusively with spack, more than doubling the life of any competent HO who could cycle the 'R' key.

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Post » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:37 am

Monk Wrote: Heck, you could spack HO cap Crossfire, didn't even need an epack.

But especially on a map like Quag where you can sit on the small hills and mortar / gren spam the base / flag / chain LD who have *no* cover while whoring your shield pack. It was a strategy the yanks took to extremes in 7v7 (those darkstrand / projectile / kambul teams) but it'd work in 12v12. I think T2 comp in Aus was dead by the time spack became the pack of choice for HO.

Not to mention spack disc jumping gets you across quag way quicker than skiing. Quag was such a bitch to ski on for heavies coz its so flat and water traps, but spack DJ'ing gets you to 150 kph in, what, 3 discs? With no health lost.

Reminds me of one of hte last pugs we had in T2 on here, and we played drifts and I was HOF, and everybody came in with an epack or SJ. Watching 7v7 american matches some 2 years later, drifts was played exclusively with spack, more than doubling the life of any competent HO who could cycle the 'R' key.


Even early classic Ohm we recognised drifts as a shielded HO map, as once you were in the door you could live twice as long. We tended to go for SJ and whiteouts for quaggie because you just couldn't see ****/same with pandemonium and dessicator. The idea of sitting in the open with 3 LD on you minediscing you in the face while two shrikes were running figure8's and chainwhoring them was less appealing to us in 12man...It wasn't that the ideas were never thought about...I know for myself personally I only ever used shields on drifts, CF, Titan and damnation...****, did we even have CF in rotation back then?...Don't think so. Against a decent shriker you could shield all you want and get sent to oob++. 7 man, sure. But 7 man was really last gasp here and lasted less than 12 months. You are right about the yanks later taking it to a whole new level armed with pings of 10ms, InterPolate and computers that could play tribes at 100fps while you had 27 other programmes open, sure. They took it to a whole new level and the 7 man map TWL comp cycle didn't have maps like quaggie in it. Most were very smooth skiing and vpad-less.

In context, in 2003, the yanks weren't really using pack options any more than us. Their Number 1 early classic games were E pack fests too.

If you look at the same time period (2003)I'd like you to show me shielded HO's playing in the open. Even better on this map. From any country or ladder. CF everyone plays shields except if they want to grab.

I think you are seeing a snapshot in time, and that adds context. Take a look at the stuff from 2001 if you really want to compare extremes. Med shielders taking bases happened from the start but the idea of standing out in the open with 16 man in shields is not a strat that was common.

Besides, I never had a f*****g clue where anything was on quaggie, let alone good routes :p
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Post » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:39 am

I do wish I'd taken at least a passing interest in the other regions and their playstyles... I very rarely looked at anyone else's demos and mostly relied on my own instincts + seeing strategies of others I played against.

It's a lot easier now... in T:A you could just look up capper routes on youtube... certainly wasn't able to do that back in T2 days. Would've been nice to have better HO routes.

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Post » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:55 am

It wasn't meant as a criticism of Aussie comp versus American comp, more than it took a really long time for any T2 comp in general to start using the SPack near exclusively, with SJ and epack in for very specific purposes. I watched an old drifts demo from the yanks with some fairly well-known names and they ran mostly all epack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj6K_d6Zsuw which, looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, is dumb.

Of course as you say out in the open 12 v 12 or larger becomes less viable, and yes, for quag in particular, sj is a fine choice. But on large maps in general at 12 v 12, you're running a HO train anyway. A couple of HOs skilled in spack usage using hills as cover could draw LD out and occupy them for a really long time or chain them out in seconds while still spamming any HOF off a flag, and then you've still got your other Sjers or epackers doing the circle skiing thing lobbing mortars thing. Not to mention if your base-rape HO take it out, then you're fighting naked LD with no MD. A skilled spacker probably doesn't take damage for at least 3 nakeds.

SP HO becomes OP in 7v7, but even in the very last 7v7 tourney organised here on Bittah, I don't remember anyone using it, on maps like Feign or Beach Blitz, which are perfect for it. Of course, that was still like a couple of years before the Americans took it to its most absurd extreme, and IMO made watching comp really boring.

I didn't know OHM / Aus teams were using spack ho's regularly on maps that weren't just clusters like minotaur or damnation or whatever. I've watched every Aus comp demo I can get my hands on (not to mention US ones) including a bunch of OHM ones and it wasn't really the impression I got - spack was niche or strictly for base-holding. Even on damn, it was used for holding the base, but not sitting on that front hill where you'd probably place a spacker now to chain out any spawning LD and spam mortars / grens, not to mention being able to chain enemy capppers as they start their side to sides, or if they're on their way back down the middle from a backcap.

I feel like if T2 came out just 5 years later and everybody had, as you say, high speed internet for chaining, and dual core CPUs and whatnot, that it would become the default pack given the shield jumping mobility it provides on top of life.

But yeah, you're right, shrikers are definitely a problem, and one I didn't think about, but an epacker has no real advantage over an spacker there if you're up against a good one.

Anyway I only mentioned it as more of a talking point. I know that shielded MO was big time, I mean, I've watched Mert's /X/ demo on Kata where he completely annihilates the tower on Kata. But when it comes to spack HO's, it seems to me that it was only around T2c's end that the strategy took a big change, at least in American comp. Aussie comp died early enough that, as far as I can tell, it never became a very common strategy, even in late stage 7v7.

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Post » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:57 pm

I feel that medium armor in general was heavily underutilised in T2 for a long time. Besides Mert I don't recall many others who regularly played in med.
In the later stages of T2 I did play quite a big of med (although still with epack)... I felt it was quite versatile and wish I'd picked it up more earlier... however was probably mainly in pubs/pugs than comps.

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